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Cho did it! He used the power of hands to counter the power of fists, which are also hands, except all scrunched up!

So, some of you may recall that I kinda like Star Wars a little bit. Well, hey! The first trailer for Star Wars: Episode XXIIVIIXKDSJ Return of the Dark Lords of the Last Sith Jedi is out! My reaction when I watched it was a weird dichotomy of pure joy and expectant frustration.

I think it’s safe to say that the best things to come out of Disney’s acquisition of Star Wars thus far have been the movie trailers. They hit all the right notes of nostalgia, and dramatic crescendo that you’d want from new Star Wars films. They consistently provide me enough context to simply assume every subsequent Star Wars film will be the greatest piece of cinema to ever grace the big screen. Needless to say, I have been disappointed, but I’ve tempered that with “well, it’s still a huge step up from the prequels.” Disney is also a very reactionary entertainment company. They work hard to respond to fan feedback in a visible manner, which can sometimes lead to over-correction but it can also lead to better films maybe, hopefully, please.

Am I looking forward to The Last Jedi? You damn well bet I am! Would I be shocked if some other film comes out of nowhere to divert my inevitably derailed hype train a la Mad Max: Fury Road? Not too shocked, no! Because Disney Star Wars movies are just kinda sloppily written, with confusing editing, bad pacing, and muddled character arcs. At this point I just have to accept that I’m never going to get the kind of emotional thrill I’ve previously associated with the franchise, you know, from when I was, like, 12. Yeah, it’s probably because I’m old and jaded. Or because the Star Wars canon encompasses the prequels, and those films utterly ruined Jedi forever. I mean, look at that Episode 8 trailer! Even Luke Skywalker’s sick to death of this ill-defined Jedi nonsense. Here’s some dialog I expect to pop up in the film if we’re sticking with established canon:

Luke – Wait, you take children away from their parents before they even know how to talk, force them into a monastic order where they’re told to never love anything or anyone because it could all be ripped away at a moment’s notice and it’s just better to be dead inside to avoid turning evil? But you also enforce that they feel an attachment to their weapon? And then you make them go into life and death situations fighting for causes that they’re mostly ignorant of and just hoping they stay committed to the Jedi Order out of some sort of Stockholm Syndrome mentality? That’s kinda messed up, guys! I think we honestly better just end this whole Jedi thing.


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  • IDPounder

    Cho’s “Thousand Pimp-Hands of Fury” beats the Thousand Fists of Fury every time! He just needs a big-assed feather in that hat of his, and he’s set.

  • charles81

    Thousand Fists of Fury meets Infinity Block

  • Ryan Thompson

    Maybe the Tao prefers quality over quantity.

    • suburban_samurai

      The Tao definitely prefers coconut over pineapple.

      • Ryan Thompson

        But which Hogwarts house is the Tao?

        • suburban_samurai


          • Kid Chaos

            No way; Cho knows when to break the rules, which totally makes him a Gryffindor. 😜

  • Sunwu

    Thats a great hit and another one!! But DJ-Cho still wont change the track to the Wu Tang clan

    • Turul

      Wu Tang of the two thousand hits

  • Chris Kotthoff


  • EBeth

    Ha! This is what I was hoping for when Matrix made her comment about rules on page 590. Thumbs up, guys! 😀

    • suburban_samurai

      We’re at the top of our game!

    • Kid Chaos

      Captain Jack Sparrow: “The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can’t do.” 😎
      –Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003)

  • Bree

    You can tell it’s serious when there isn’t a(n un)sound effect present such as “NO WAY!”, “STUNNED SILENCE”, or the like.

    Cho is so awesome that when he inspires stunned silence, the narrative has nothing to say.

    • suburban_samurai

      I thought the page looked too cool to through a “PARRY’D!” in there.

      • Nos Rin aka CTCO


      • pkrcel

        This page is INCREDIBLY WELL DONE.

        You hit the nail on the head using no sfx onomatopea, this inspires EXACTLY the stunned silence Bree is talking about.

        Way to go!

  • Bree

    I mean.

    I have no words for the situation at hand.

  • Turul

    The “slo-mo” effect in the first panels is just kind of awesome. For a moment I thought I was watching a movie XD

    • Bree

      We could only dream.

  • SKy

    Yeah, you can punch through pretty much everything, but what good does it for you if you can’t even hit me?

    • Kid Chaos

      “Stop *trying* to hit me and HIT ME!” 😎

  • Kid Chaos

    “I busted him up.” 😜

    • suburban_samurai

      Wiggle those fingers, Data!

  • Flaming Squirrel

    Cho: “You should see your face.”
    Wu: “You should see it too.”
    Yori (in the distance): “Ooh, sick burn!”

    As a passive Star Wars fan, I’m excited for the new movie too, but I’m not going to spend a lot of time agonizing over it (or thinking about it much at all). I’m actually pretty excited for this year’s lineup of Marvel movies, myself. Guardians 2 looks like fun and I’m interested to see how the new Spiderman handles his own movie. Thor: Ragnarok looks like it could be fun too, but the classic rock music, weird sense of humor, and neon words make it feel like it’s trying way too hard to be GotG… which who knows, he may actually end up meeting in this one.

    • suburban_samurai

      Yeah, the Marvel movies for this year look like they’re going to be a lot of fun, as opposed to 2016’s more somber Marvel films (relatively speaking).

      • Flaming Squirrel

        I can’t be the only one who thought the villain in Ragnarok looked like she’d just wandered in off the Power Rangers’ set, though.

  • Dylan

    This? This is an excellent birthday present.

    • suburban_samurai

      Happy birthday!

  • foducool

    1000 parries of flurry

  • endplanets

    Its like how in animes where a punch hits a punch and it creates a shockwave, but here its like, a thousand of them. And deflected.

    The whole ‘Jedi’s can’t feel love’ thing is dumb. Real world European monks can’t marry because The Church forces them to because the Church was sick of all of the priests giving their kids lands and money when they died (no really).
    And we have already established that force users are more likely to have force kids…. so have the Jedi nail/get nailed by everyone and have tons of Jedi.
    And the Jedi are all pure and moralistic so they can’t marry. But why not the Sith. Are they just so EEEVIL that they can’t fall in love? But even then they would hit up a brothel and have tons of Force babies.

    I do like the idea that the Jedi are completely emotionally dead except for the love of their weapon. The Doom Guy and Alabama can get behind that.

    And the books make the Jedi out like assholes too. In one book a teenage Kenobi is told that if he fails his Jedi tests they will ship him to a mining colony. So they are going to take a teen with no real galaxy knowledge or socializing, who has spent all his time practicing how to stab people, take him away from all of his friends/family, and dump him on a mining facility. For the rest of his life. And Kenobi has no choice in the matter. He can’t join the regular army, become a cop, or become a Jedi janitor: nope, they choose for him.

    • Kid Chaos

      Time to start over and build a New Jedi Order–from scratch. 😎

      • Ratatosk

        The 9th movie might be named:
        The second rising of the Dai Bendu

      • reynard61
        • Kid Chaos

          But, dude, you are the Jedi establishment…what’s left of it, anyway. 👽

          • clogboy

            Precisely. And being as conflicted as his father was, he realizes he’ll never unlock his full potential if he commits solely to the Light Side. I believe Luke was never the prophesized Jedi. Rey is.
            Mace Windu had the right idea. Even Yoda embraced his dark side rather than fear it (that’s why he saw nothing when he entered the cave).

          • suburban_samurai

            noooooo, no more prophecies, pleeeaaassseeeeee….

          • clogboy

            What’s wrong with the prophecy is that the Jedi relied on two Skywalkers in a row. Correction: it’s that it was a Jedi prophecy. For balance to exist, both the Sith and Jedi need to disappear. There can’t be balance without balance within.

          • suburban_samurai

            The thing is that I don’t think they ever discuss balancing the light and dark side in the original trilogy, because why the heck would you want any dark side? And the problem with the prophecy is that it is given ZERO CONTEXT. We don’t know where it came from, what it means, who came up with it, how old it is, why anyone would believe it, etc. For all we know, Yoda saw it spelled out in his alphabet soup. It also keeps changing. First, the Chosen One is only supposed to bring balance to the Force. Then he’s supposed to bring balance AND destroy the Sith (which seems contradictory?). Also, we’re never told the exact wording of ‘the prophecy’, only that there is one, and we’re told only roughly what it says, maybe. Yoda even states something like “the prophecy that misread could have been”. So maybe Yoda mucked up his alphabet soup reading, who knows. It’s also another clear indicator that the prequel Jedi are religious zealots who don’t question what they’re doing or why, despite original trilogy Jedi being open minded and thoughtful. Do I rant about Star Wars too much? Be honest!

          • purplelibraryguy

            Luckily Yoda had Batman handy to analyze the alphabet soup.
            (Note: This actually happened in the old Batman TV series)

          • clogboy

            I enjoy the rants. They inspire me to think about the franchise.
            There’s much wrong with the prequel trilogy. But watch a fan edit on Youtube that only focuses on the political aspects and it will get better.
            In the OT it has been like 15 years since the Jedi Order has been destroyed. The two most sensible Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda) had a long time to ponder on their own, and ‘not be a Jedi’. Obi-Wan wasn’t as much a zealot as he is a pragmatist, and Yoda has always known the importance of finding inner balance (hence why he saw nothing when he entered the cave). But I agree that the prophecy isn’t just ambiguous; it’s also fairly pointless to the story.

          • purplelibraryguy

            I think that’s the first time I’ve ever heard anyone say Mace Windu was right about anything.

          • clogboy

            That’s because I’ve seen him only in the prequel trilogy, and not in any of the spin-offs. Plus, Samuel L. Jackson is frackin’ bad-ass. Him being a grey Jedi puts +2 coolness on the character.

          • Kid Chaos

            Hmmm, kind of reminds me of Thomas Jefferson. He encouraged the people to always hold their government accountable for its’ actions, and to be prepared to take down the government and replace it if things got out of hand. I know, I’m oversimplifying good old TJ, but I think you get the idea. SEE ALSO: “How To Fight Presidents” , by Daniel O’Brien. 😎

    • Sam Zalereth

      The reason the Sith only stick with two is a long time ago the Sith were numerous and constantly at war with the Jedi, then along came a Sith named Bane, who figured out the problem the Sith were having….they are often too power hungry to work together as well as Jedi do, which is good, cus for Sith power hungry and brutal struggles often breed stronger Sith, the issue was when multiple apprentices teamed up to kill their stronger master, ended up with a weaker breed of sith. So Bane came up with a system of just two Sith, a master and apprentice (one to hold the power and the other to crave it). He then went on to trick the remaining Sith and Jedi to duke it out, and use a thought bomb to wipe out both armies. With the Jedi assuming the Sith have finally died out, he went into hiding with his apprentice and his new system which required the Sith to remain hidden until they were finally strong enough to overthrow the Jedi. The system is where the master trains the apprentice, until they are ready to overthrow their master. If they win they become the new master, their old master is dead, and they take on a new apprentice, if they lose, the master finds and trains a new apprentice. All while the Jedi grow weak and complacent with no Sith to fight.

      • suburban_samurai

        I’ve read the Bane books. He rides a pterodactyl between two planets when they orbit close to each other. The books are BONKERS. Also, they’re not canon anymore (even if Bane, as a character is because of a brief reference in The Clone Wars). The problem is that if you’re trying to set up an order, or religion, or whatever Jedi/Sith are, then Bane’s system is a disaster waiting to happen. If the master is killed or dies before the student is ready to become the master, then it’s all over. If the student dies and the master is too old to begin training a new apprentice, then it’s all over, As a two person order, how do you secure your legacy over the long term? Maybe you can get non-Force acolytes or worshipers, but there’s still only two of you, so the power structure you can erect and maintain is limited. There are too many variable that could ruin the Sith if there are ONLY EVER TWO OF THEM. So the rule of two is very very dumb. On top of that, it makes the Jedi seem even more hilariously incompetent because thousands of them can’t seem to stop two Sith from taking over the whole freakin’ galaxy, despite being in a position of massive political and military power.

        Also, what I find very frustrating about the Dark Side in general is how it’s characterized as ‘just being evil’ so often. What makes Empire Strikes Back the best of the Star Wars films (imo) is that Yoda introduces the idea that there is no significant power different between the light side and the dark side, and that it’s the person’s state of mind that makes the distinction, not some external factor. Luke fails in the cave because he brings his weapons, which falls in line with the Dark Side because he approached the situation with potential combat in mind. Vader wants Luke to join him so they can bring order to the galaxy, not necessarily to be evil tyrants. He seems to recognize the Emperor is evil. The dark side is significantly more interesting when the bad guys don’t think they’re bad, or at least do bad things with good intentions in mind. Vader feels he’s already morally fallen and so he might as well use all the might at his disposal to stabilize a galaxy he sees as too random and chaotic. Sure, it’ll result in a lot of death and destruction, but at the end of it will be a cleaner, better version than what he started with.

        Unfortunately, the Emperor in Return of the Jedi, as much as I love him, is a silly evil caricature that does away with the budding philosophy from Empire Strikes Back. Luke’s grapple with the dark side at the threat that Vader might turn Leia evil seems like a massive over reaction considering the current circumstance. So in the end, the franchise tends to default to ‘Dark Side users are evil for evil’s sake’, probably because it’s easier to write that way. And the prequel films have no idea what they’re doing with the Force. Like, literally no idea. Which is why I wish Disney had excised it from the canon!

        • endplanets

          My friend told me something about Gray Jedi. A Force user who can use the good parts of the Dark Side (so ambition instead of greed or something) and rejects the dumb parts of the Light Side (everyone can jump into the Bone Zone). And this makes them Gray.

          So I guess if Luke is making everyone Gray then he really would be the Last Jedi.

          • suburban_samurai

            what the fudge does abstinence have to do with being one with the light side? Like how does that even correlate? We need to stop retconning the canon to fit all that prequel nonsense into it all! I can’t even wrap my brain around any logic that shows Luke as being more morally gray than the jedi in the prequels.

            I remember back in freshman year of college when I first saw a poster for Attack of the Clones with the tagline “For Jedi love is forbidden” or something like that, and all the warning sirens went off in my head. I was PISSED, and I’m still pissed! Because with that single poster I completely lost the idea of what Jedi were. I’d associated them with open mindedness, empathy, compassion, and fighting for ideals above all. Then suddenly they were close minded, emotionally repressed religious fanatics who follow traditions that go against their own best interests.

            Literally everything we learn about Jedi in the OT is contradicted by the prequel films to the point where the definition of Jedi just 180 degree flips between trilogies. They might as well be called Jodi or something entirely different in the prequels. I honestly think Jedi abstinence was worse than midichlorians and the virgin birth in terms of murdering the whole logic of the SW universe. Why did Lucas become so obsessed with the Christian idea of purity to represent the Jedi when he claims to be Buddhist (which I assume is his shorthand for ‘atheist/agnostic’)?

          • Bree

            To be fair: in the original Star Wars, the only original Jedi we see are Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi, teaching Luke. It IS possible that, maybe, they learned from their mistakes, and intentionally tried to teach Luke to be different:

            That they recognized the old Jedi WERE close-minded, emotionally-repressed religious fanatics following traditions going against their best interests, and that is specifically why they failed. And so, in teaching the NEW Jedi, Luke, they wanted him to instead be open-minded with empathy, compassion, and fighting for ideals above all.

          • suburban_samurai

            I mean I’ve heard that justification before, but that is imposing a narrative onto the films that is never stated. At no point to Yoda or Obiwan show any remorse about the direction the Jedi Order had taken. In fact, Obiwan seems to be very wistful and nostalgic for it. This indicates, at least in the original films, that the Jedi were wiped out unjustly, and re-establishing the Jedi through Luke is a means of returning a force of good to the galaxy.

          • Bree

            Pretty much, yeah. (I was mostly playing Devil’s Advocate.)

          • SlugFiller

            A quick reminder that in the OT Yoda asked Luke to let his sister and best friend die because he’s not ready to block off his emotions yet. So no, I neither think that Yoda or Obi-Wan “learned their lesson”, nor do I see a contradiction. It’s simply that with the very little that they teach of the force, it’s not immediately obvious that they’re against the whole emotions thing.

            Heck, Obi-Wan explicitly lies to Luke about his father. He makes that “perspective” excuse, but if you really think about it, and about what he and Yoda say afterwards, it seems like it’s more their goal for Luke to kill Vader, but not feel any anger during it, or guilt afterwards. Basically, they think proper Jedi should be Terminators. Emotionless killing machines.

            It’s Luke who decides that his father can be redeemed, and that this is a worthy venue to seek, despite the risks. He says he is a Jedi for refusing to kill his father at the emperor’s behest. But, in fact, Yoda and Obi-Wan had also asked him to kill his father. So, in effect, at that point, he had already become something that is neither Sith nor Jedi.

          • suburban_samurai

            Yoda didn’t want Luke to go to Bespin because he knew it was a trap laid by Vader and that Luke wasn’t ready to face Vader yet. He also guessed/assumed/foresaw that Luke couldn’t do anything to help Han and Leia, and they were willing to sacrifice themselves to keep Luke safe. And he was right. He was being a pragmatist who was considering the greater good and the most rational action. Yoda never teaches Luke to block off his emotions so much as he wants Luke to control them. Yoda and Obiwan both show plenty of emotions in the OT. “Control, control! You must have control!”

            Yoda also didn’t know Leia was Luke’s sister in ESB because that was a decision Lucas made for RotJ. The original plan was to have a new character appear as Luke’s sister according to the ‘Making Of’ books (and geez does it make no sense on so many levels that Leia is his sister).

            As for Yoda and Ben imploring Luke to kill Vader, the only line, and the one I have probably the most problem with in Jedi, that shows either of them want Luke specifically to kill Vader is when Ben says “then the Emperor has already won” after Luke proclaims he won’t kill his father. Yoda only says Luke needs to ‘confront’ Vader, and Ben doesn’t seem entirely opposed to Luke trying to turn Vader back, which makes sens contextually in the OT because Ben talks wistfully about their past friendship and the good person Anakin used to be. “The Jedi use the Force for Knowledge and defense, never for attack”. Luke also fails in the cave precisely BECAUSE he brings his weapons, and then fails again when he rushes to fight Vader.

            So at least in terms of the first two films (which are basically my personal canon and everything after that muddles it), the the hope that Ben and Yoda are placing in Luke is that he will continue the ideals of the Jedi, that of knowledge, understanding, non-aggression, and critical thinking, and those ideals will inspire others to question and rise against the oppression of the Empire. For all we know, their original plan for Luke was to have him walk up to Vader and go “Strike me down if you must, but if there is any part of you that can see the the evil in your actions and the contradiction in your logic, put aside your blade and find the redemption you thought was impossible through undoing the suppression you wrought.” Or something like that. I mean it’s hilariously over idealized, but this IS Star Wars, with good and evil clearly defined.

          • SlugFiller

            Luke had foreseen what would happen if he didn’t go to Bespin. Yoda’s foresight had been blinded for a while, at that point, and he had no reason to doubt Luke’s prescience. He wasn’t worried that Luke would face Vader and lose, he was worried that he’d face Vader, win, but then become like Vader in the process. And, to him, a few lives sacrificed is worth the price.

            Ultimately, Luke’s decision to go was correct in that case. Not only did he give the others the chance to escape, him losing his hand and learning the truth in his fight with Vader, would ultimately allow him to understand why his own face was behind the mask in the cave. And that resulted in the catharsis in the end of ep6.

            Also, Luke bringing his light saber wasn’t the ONLY reason he failed the cave. It was just one factor. It’s not as if coming in unarmed would have prevented him from seeing his doppleganger. It was his own hate towards a person whom he believed killed his father, and who killed his father-figure mentor. Obi-Wan had a lot to do with nurturing that hate.

            Ultimately, the ideology of the Jedi has always boiled down to “fear is the path to the dark side”. Yoda may exhibit knowledge and understanding, Obi-Wan did some “non-aggression” in his self-sacrifice, and I’m not sure where you got “critical thinking” from, but it’s still down to removing all fear. And not in the Dune “I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me” way.

            Also, didn’t you just earlier say that you liked Star Wars because the villains aren’t evil for the sake of being evil? Yes, the opening narration isn’t afraid to say “The evil galactic empire”. But then, a removed scene had Luke considering joining the empire as a pilot. I’ve seen overly naive light vs dark stuff, and Star Wars, thankfully, isn’t it.
            Plus, I have to give it to Lucas for making a Lawful Evil character likeable. Especially when, in my personal experience, Lawful Evil are the worst kind of people. I think the fact that he never pats himself on the back for a job well done factors well into this.

          • suburban_samurai

            “Luke had foreseen what would happen if he didn’t go to Bespin.“

            Luke saw Han and Leia in a city in the clouds, and he said “they were in pain.” He asks Yoda “will they die?” and Yoda responds “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.” So, no, Luke didn’t forsee what would happen if he went to Bespin.

            Yoda responds “Decide you must, how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could… BUT you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.” Which means that if Luke goes to Bespin, he’ll be walking right into a trap that Han and Leia definitely do not want him to walk into. Leia struggles to warn Luke it’s a trap when he briefly sees her in the cloud city hallway. In “The Making of Empire Strikes Back”, director Ivrin Kershner said in an interview that he wanted to get across that it was Luke’s urgency to fight vader that was his weakness, and the reason he both failed in the cave and at Bespin, where he was unable to alter the outcome of events. If Luke had never appeared, events likely would have played out the same for Han and Leia and Luke would still have his hand. That’s what the director of the film said. I’ll try and find the exact page and quote later if you want.

            “Ultimately, the ideology of the Jedi has always boiled down to “fear is the path to the da rk side”. Yoda may exhibit knowledge and understanding, Obi-Wan did some “non-aggression” in his self-sacrifice, and I’m not sure where you got “critical thinking” from, but it’s still down to removing all fear.”

            I get critical thinking from the fact that Yoda wants Luke to be calm and at peace and not act rashly, and to think about the best course of action in difficult situations. Critical thinking also can alleviate fear of the unknown.

            “Also, didn’t you just earlier say that you liked Star Wars because the villains aren’t evil for the sake of being evil? Yes, the opening narration isn’t afraid to say “The evil galactic empire”. But then, a removed scene had Luke considering joining the empire as a pilot. I’ve seen overly naive light vs dark stuff, and Star Wars, thankfully, isn’t it.”

            To be fair, the original film pretty much was good vs evil. Vader, Tarkin, the Death Star, the Empire, it’s all very clearly evil, no remorse. Empire was the film that started to gray things up and introduce some more complex philosophical ideas, which is why it’s my favorite of the films (well, one of the many reasons why). Obviously the Emperor is characterized as pure evil in RotJ, so it’s a step back from the more complex direction ESB started to take. The thing with Star Wars films is that they’re pretty vague and contradictory with their characters’ motivations and personal philosophies, so a lot of it is left up to viewer interpretation. This is probably one of the reasons it’s endured so long, kind of like a religion. Granted, I would probably have preferred a more cohesive moral message at the heart of it all.

            “Plus, I have to give it to Lucas for making a Lawful Evil character likeable. Especially when, in my personal experience, Lawful Evil are the worst kind of people. I think the fact that he never pats himself on the back for a job well done factors well into this.”

            Lucas can certainly get full credit for the character’s existence, but I’m gonna give credit to Lawrence Kasdan and Irvin Kershner for Vader’s more layered characterization in ESB. In RotJ he’s basically just a whipped dog, with all intimidation stripped from him. And in ANH he’s basically just a very intimidating evil henchman with hints that tie him to Luke’s past, albeit still a lawful evil character with a lot of presence, and James Earl Jone’s great voice. Based on what I read in Making of Empire, I get the impression Irvin and Kasdan were doing the heavy lifting with story cohesion and character depth, although it was Lucas who revealed Vader was Luke’s father. That is legitimately the great twist and it was definitely Lucas’ idea. The film was also highly collaborative, much like ANH had been, with a lot of the same team and other highly talented people brought on board. RotJ lost Kershner (for a variety of reasons), and his replacement, Richard Marquand, was just a TV director and more of a yes man to Lucas, not really questioning his ideas or challenging him. So we definitely get some shadows of the prequels in RotJ, such as ewoks and confusing writing and tonal flip flops. Still, Kasdan was the screenplay writer so it wasn’t a total disaster, just disappointing. It also had a notably smaller budget than Empire because Lucas was self funding again and didn’t want to take as much of a hit.


          • SlugFiller

            Luke certainly didn’t foresee what would happen if he went to Bespin, but he did have a vision of what would happen if he DIDN’T. I guess whether his presence there was useful or not is up for debate. But I don’t think they’d have made the getaway they have without Luke’s help.
            Yoda’s statement pretty much echos the same sentiment. It can be rephrased as “You’d save them, but not what they fight for”. It’s not that Yoda suspects a trap or a failure. It’s just that he expects saving Leia and the others to come at a cost. And again, by his own testament, he’s still partially force-blind, although I suppose you could re-interpret it as “No one can see the future” if you don’t take the emperor’s prescience in RotJ as canon.

            I’m not sure if what Yoda suggests qualifies as “think clearly, and you’ll find the best course of action”. It’s more along the lines of “greater good”.

            Also, I have to disagree with your view of ANH. While Tarkan is clearly all about extreme hubris and showing off his power, Vader actually stands in somewhat of a contrast to that. He’s already a lawful evil character, giving the vibe of “I don’t enjoy torture and killing. I do what I must. I do as I’m told”. Less so on the latter part, when he gives lines like “Do not overestimate the technological terror you’ve constructed”, or “The force is strong with this one”. He never underestimates his opponents.

            In fact, lack of hubris, gloating, and self-righteousness is what makes Vader unique as a lawful evil character. A classical lawful evil would usually refuse to assert that anything they do is not the absolute most correct and right and moral thing to do. While ANH is too early to give Vader an air of self-hate as the prequels would later imply that he should have, it does give him an air of “I get the job done”. Even before he starts choking people from across space, he already warns his partners not to go half-hearted into what he already realizes is a war proper.

            So, while Tarkan is a clear black, killing millions just to make a demonstration, Vader is not so clear cut. His motive is to stop a leak and prevent harm to his side. Maybe not noble, consider what side he’s on, but certainly not different from what anyone else would do for the side that they are on.
            Also, the way he follows Tarkan’s orders, but still gets free motion when he’s not around, makes him look less like “Evil henchman” and more like “mercenary”. If anything, by giving him a position of command, ESB ruins his unique position of seeming like an outsider compared to the rest of the imperial army.

            As for the emperor, he’s a more clear black, wanting absolute power, and not thinking twice about replacing his most loyal vassal. But that doesn’t strictly contradict anything previously established. The emperor is not Vader. Treating them as having the same moral compass is a mistake, especially after Vader suggests a coup in ESB.
            I don’t see a “moral flip-flop” like you do. I see a set of villains that, unlike cartoon villains, are not a morally uniform mesh, but rather, consists of different people with different moral views.
            Now, perhaps Vader’s Heel-Face turn kind of spoils that, since you can argue “Oh, but this one wasn’t REALLY a villain”, but it still counts for a message of “Don’t see your enemies simply as a monster to be vanquished”.

          • purplelibraryguy

            To be perfectly honest, I find both versions of Jedi kind of iffy. No matter what version of Jedi we’re talking about, it seems like the Jedi approach to “following the light side” is to a fair degree about rejecting all strong emotion in favour of serenity and harmony. A very Buddhist idea. Sometimes it seems like the ultimate ideal is to become almost a passive vessel for the Force in a Taoist kind of way, where you’re in harmony with the universe and it does the right thing through you because you’re transparent to it. One might say the Dark Side of the force is the side of emotion and emphasis on the self, while the light side is about universality, going beyond the self.
            But the thing is, while the ones they emphasize are anger and fear and hate, things like love and joy are also strong emotions and also disturb your tranquility. Which I presume is where the whole “No falling in love and fooling around” schtick in the prequels comes from. My problem is I like the strong positive emotions so I don’t really want to be serene if dropping them is the price I gotta pay.

            It would be amusing to have a Star Wars thing where there were these users of the Force who didn’t actually emphasize hate and fear but instead were into love and pleasure and joy and were all blissed-out-hippie . . . but from a Jedi point of view, were still wielding the “Dark Side”.

          • suburban_samurai

            yeah, Jedi in the OT are definitely very Buddhist. Granted they are ACTUALLY in a universe where staying calm and at peace allows them to better tap into the guidance of the Force. And it is true that being overly jubilant about something, or passionately loving something or someone could blind you to certain faults or problems. This is obviously me extrapolating, but I’d like to think that Jedi philosophy isn’t the suppression of emotions good or bad, but a temperance of emotions so they don’t control your actions. Losing control to your extreme emotion when you have the potential of the Force at your fingertips isn’t just a matter of preference when you’re a Jedi, it’s common sense and practicality.

          • Kid Chaos

            There is no emotion, there is peace.
            There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
            There is no passion, there is serenity.
            There is no chaos, there is harmony.
            There is no death, there is the Force.
            –Jedi Code (original)

          • suburban_samurai

            Yeah, the Jedi Code, which was added to the EU post prequels. You’d figure the Jedi Code would be, like, a very succinct instruction booklet, not a vaguely worded poem. They’re an order of knights with a code of conduct, appointed to defend those in need, or at least that’s what I thought they were until we found out they were a weird, backwards religious cult.

      • endplanets

        That actually explains a lot. But I still have no idea why anyone would every choose the ‘one master, one apprentice’ system. The apprentice would kill the master…. and because the apprentice is evil they would either:
        1) have tons of apprentices and build a small army. Who cares about long term logic; evil thinks short term baby.
        2) not have an apprentice. Any time spent raising an apprentice is time not spent at Jaba’s snorting death sticks off of hookers tentacles. This isn’t a charity kid, Sith off.
        And the best case scenario is the apprentice kills you. But its for the greater good. But Sith don’t care about good. Heck, even the Jedi wouldn’t care about just gaining power as power is usually a means to an end. I know they are space Buddhists who MAYBE believe in Force Transcendence but most people gain power to live in a mountain of space credits and slaves / live in a humble 50 story mega Jedi Temple.

        And that still doesn’t explain why Sith can’t fall in love / go to brothels. They can use space condoms dang it.

        • Dorje

          The “Rule of Two” logic Drew Karpyshyn lays out in the Bane books hinges on a key point. The will and power of the Dark Side. Just as the Light Side guides Luke or any Jedi, the Dark Side essentially stacks reality in the Sith’s favor. If you take the Dark Side out of the equation, ya the “Rule of Two” is fairly darn stupid and has no fail safe. However the Dark Side is still a major factor there, and because the Force is “deus ex machina” it makes it work, by the Power of the Force.

          The core goal was Quality over Quantity. The end objective is Destroy the Jedi. The Sith had tried amassing armies, and it resulted in the Sith killing each other (see Yoda talking to Darth Bane’s ghost in the still canon Clone Wars cartoon). By picking only one Apprentice to teach everything to, the only person that Apprentice can turn on is their Master. And only once the Apprentice is more knowledgeable and stronger in the Dark Side. A slow grind to the top, instead of quick race to the bottom.

          If you take two or more apprentices, while individually weaker, they could tag team and kill you. Leaving the Sith with two weaker less knowledgeable claimants, who will then turn on each other. Imagine if you could only become a “Professor” by eliminating your current Professor. Now imagine a college lecture class, of say 250, all ganging up on the Professor before mid-terms, and then having to fight each other to become the new Professor and gain control of the Grade Book. Very quickly you can see how critical knowledge and skills would be lost. Pre-“Rule of Two” that was the Sith, a lecture class that had turned on itself and was losing both knowledge and talent, as each “false professor” tried to train their own lecture class of even weaker Sith to support them against the other “false professors” (only to be eliminated before mid-terms by the mob).

          The final result was Darth Bane, alone, atop a metaphorical (and perhaps literal) corpse pile of all other Sith.

          What happens if a Master dies too early, or dies without an Apprentice? #1 The Dark Side of Force is a “deus ex machina” so it doesn’t happen. The Dark Side provides. #2 Even if it does happen, Force Ghosts are canon. It’s a setback and brings the Sith Order’s over all power potential down, but it’s not completely fatal. It did take 1000 years for the Sith claw back from Bane to Sidious.

          On a breeding side. There’s nothing to stop a Sith from banging the whole galaxy… aside from their first true lust, raw Dark Side power. The children of such dalliance aren’t really important, the partners aren’t important… expect where either can be used to further the Sith’s personal power, and the Sith order’s goal of exterminating the Jedi. As to snorting death sticks at Jabba’s… that’s light weight stuff next to the UNLIMITED POWER that is the Dark Side. Why waste your time on anything else?

          • suburban_samurai

            The Bane books are a pretty good read, I enjoyed them back in the day. And your explanation as to why the Rule of Two makes sense in the broader context of the Star Wars canon is quality stuff! It just also kind of makes me roll my eyes because of all the mental arithmetic to get there. What the Force is and what the role the Sith and Jedi play in the galaxy is so muddled, confusing, and contradictory (even just within the films) at this point that my grumpy old man brain wants to simply reject it all!

    • suburban_samurai

      “I do like the idea that the Jedi are completely emotionally dead except for the love of their weapon. The Doom Guy and Alabama can get behind that.”

      Doom Guy is just the best. But as cool as being emotionally dead inside and loving your weapon is as a character concept, it contradicts one of Yoda’s most important teachings to Luke; “A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.” Granted that’s the same Yoda that commanded a clone army and killed those same clone troopers when he one-man assaulted the Jedi temple. Or maybe…it’s NOT the same Yoda…?

  • Nos Rin aka CTCO

    was episode 7 flawed? Yes. was it really flawed? Maybe.
    Is it still my favorite star wars film. YES.
    Why? Because it was FUN. plot? don’t give a fuck. fun characters. Yes it had those. I FREAKING ADORE FINN!!! HE BETTER BE OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Look, i know it was a flawed film that could have done many many things better of course it could have.
    But I still enjoyed it. Even where I could see them blatantly ripping off scenes from the old films. I STILL ENJOYED IT.

    AM I INSANE?! MAYBE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Primarch Lazarus

      That was basically how I felt when I saw ep 7 and Rogue One. Both were meh in terms of plot but I loved the characters. K2-SO in Rogue One and BB-7 TFA were my favorites. And I’m sure Finn is fine, there’s no way Disney would get rid of him at this point.

      I too enjoy bouts of insanity.
      Blood for the blood god? BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!

      • Nos Rin aka CTCO

        ya that snarky robot was just awesome.
        I felt like some of the characters could have survived all that. the “they weren’t in 4-6” is a weak excuse. there’s tons of background characters you never really see or meet so, come on. SOMEONE could have lived.

        My biggest issue with Rogue one of all things is the ending. Where Leia’s ship flees the battle. SERIOUSLY?! her. “we’re just ambassadors” line makes no sense now. I’ve seen people say “duh, she was lieing” No shit she was lieing you’re missing the point the point is. it’s like eating a piece of cake right in front of your mom after she told you not too, looking her right in the eye as you did it, and then claiming you did not eat any cake. SHE SAW YOU DO IT.
        IF the ship that fleed the battle had been a different ship which got chased by the star destroyer and then met up with her ship somewhere in space, then maybe blown up and then leia’s ship has to flee, that would have made waaaaayyyyy more sense and sure would have been more into the budget and add five minutes to the film or so BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN LOGICAL!!!! AAAARGG!!!!

        Also I feel the fact that there was an intended weakness is kind of lame? kind of ruins the effort of assaulting the deathstar? makes it too easy?
        eh, that’s debatable I guess.

        Anyway I just can’t wait for epsiode 8 and mark hamill and more fin.

        I agree with some that rey was pretty meh, but HEY, luke was pretty damn meh as well. the side characters were much more fun.

        • Orange Orangutan

          Sure, that whole excuse with ambassador ship looks stupid and funny and childish, until you realize that she was playing for the fate of the galaxy and that was the last thing she could do (damn, sucks to be her). She was ready to sacrifice much more for her ideals than a little bit of self respect 😀

          I mean really, what else was she gonna do? Plain admitting “yeah, you caught us, here are the plans”? Looks cool, but what’s the point? Defiant “You got us, but you will never have the plans” ? Why even admitting you know about the plans at all? Coming up with something so stupid and over the top that Vader couldn’t even think about it with a straight face (if his face wasn’t a helmet, that is), is actually a really good distraction- which is a good thing, because, the longer the Vader is distracted, the higher are the chances that the droids will escape.

          • Nos Rin aka CTCO

            the problem still reminds that was almost an acceptable excuse before rogue one was made. before who knows where she was it was passable.
            Now it’s just, why are you even bothering, HE SAW YOU.
            No more plausible dependability.

            Honestly though that’s my only real gripe, besides them placing in a weakness which cheapens the victory.

            I had always assumed she was indeed an ambassador out on a mission and picked up the plans on the side.
            I can see NO Plausible reason for her to ever have been in the battle at all.

          • Orange Orangutan

            I agree that the original assumed story was cool and all and there really was no reason for her to be in the battle.

            But this “why even bother” opinion I keep seeing is honestly beyond me. Why bother? Because everything is at stake! Any little chance counts. It doesn’t even matter if the excuse is plausible, it is still better than doing nothing.

            I dare you all to come up with something significantly better she could have said.

          • suburban_samurai

            I don’t think Nos Rin is arguing that Leia stating a bold faced lie to Vader’s face is outright dumb, it’s that Rogue One itself played with the continuity in a sloppy way. And it sounds like you agree too! There are other broken threads of logic, like how the opening crawl to A New Hope says the Rebels have won their first victory against the Empire, during which they got the plans. But in Rogue One, the Rebels lose pretty badly, and the only victory to be found IS the act of getting the plans. Granted the opening crawls are not always accurate (ESB’s crawl implies that Luke is leading the rebels on Hoth when he clearly is not in charge).

            As for potential better delaying tactics, she might’ve stated she was a hostage, and asked for asylum. It would be more believable to Vader that she was being used to the Rebels and didn’t understand what she was doing since she’s just a teenager. Then when Vader demands to know where the plans are, she could say she doesn’t know, or tell him they were destroyed during the attack. Outright stating she’s on a diplomatic missions made a lot more sense before Rogue One showed her ship fleeing directly from battle pursued by Vader, is all we’re saying!

            Of course, if we’re griping about Rogue One in general, I just felt the character arcs were either non-existent or very muddled. The only character with a clear arc was the droid, who was great. Everyone else either flip flopped for no apparent reason or at seemingly random, or never really changed during the film. Also everyone seemed totally cool with dying, which makes it hard to feel bad about any of it, and I kinda WANT to feel bad when the whole cast gets wiped out. The blind martial artist guy has one cool scene when he’s introduced and then never does anything quite as awesome again, even though he certainly has the opportunities. Saw Gerrara just kinda stays on his planet to die even though he’s like a second father to Jyn and he could easily escape with them. They hyperspace jump in atmosphere, which basically means that travelling through space and planetary blockades in Star Wars are unnecessary. Yeah, I’ve got problems with the film. The space battle at the end is really cool, though. Too bad it didn’t involve any characters I cared about.

          • Slograman

            It involved the Y-Wing. YOU SHOULD CARE ABOUT THE Y-WING CHARACTER, ALEX.

          • suburban_samurai

            It’s B-Wings or BUST!!!

          • Nos Rin aka CTCO

            “Kiss my ass?” then spit in his face?

  • clogboy

    Not to argue with a winning technique, but what’s going on with Cho’s block? Not sure if the flow of the action makes much sense to me. Must be the Tao 😉

    • suburban_samurai

      Don’t make other people look at it so hard or they’ll realize it makes no sense!

      • clogboy

        *snort* Sorry, looking too much into details sometimes.
        Also: ‘Tao’. Well played Sir, well played :)

  • Insane Disciple

    Whoa, Dante and Vergil up in this bitch

  • Amber Hill

    Open palms! Paper beats Rock!

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